Interview with John Brookfield
by Steve Cotter
SC: John, first of all thank you — I know you're on vacation with your family, so I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.
JB: You're welcome, I'm happy to do it.
SC: John, everybody know you as a man with some of the strongest hands in the world, but maybe we can talk about some things that are lesser known about you.
JB: You're welcome, I'm happy to do it.
SC: You actually consider yourself an endurance athlete, even though more people know you as a strength athlete.
JB: Yeah, actually I consider myself a little bit more of an endurance athlete than I do a strength athlete, but because of that book, "The Mastery of Hand Strength", I always get kind of labeled with just the hand strength.
SC: In our recent conversations, we had talked about kettlebells and you've indicated that you really enjoy them and that a lot of your training now revolves around the use of them. For someone who is world-renown for your grip and hand strength, what is it about KBs that are so intriguing to you?
JB: Well, really they're so versatile. They can be used for anything — any kind of strength training, you know, hard-core cardiovascular, grip training. Just one of the most versatile tools in the world, obviously.
SC: Can you give some examples of training that you have put yourself through using KBs. The weight that you would use, the types of reps, and the types of exercises?
JB: Yes, actually I've used pretty much all the different types of weights, anywhere from 35lb. up to about 155lb with thick handles. I specialize in a lot of juggling of the weights. I'll do a drill where I might go 20 or 30 minutes, you know maybe juggle a 53lb. or a 70lb kettlebell just doing a variety of juggles. Just trying to keep the flow of motion going. And of course, that's giving you a very good cardiovascular workout, also hand-eye coordination and pretty much working all the muscles of your body.
On several occasions just for conditioning training, I've taken the 53lb kettlebell and actually have done a snatch drill, like for about an hour straight, just non-stop.
SC: Wow, I know how intense that is! When you do that for an hour straight, do you switch hands whenever you feel like it, or do you use a certain rep number before you switch hands?
JB: Pretty much Steve, no particular rationale, I pretty much just switch hands when I feel like it. I may do 10 reps per hand, or maybe 20. No particular way, just kind of how I feel.
SC: Have you ever counted how many repetitions you would get done in an hour, doing that?
JB: I can tell you pretty closely. After me and you spoke about a month ago I actually pretty much kept the numbers. I can honestly say it would be I know over 1,200.
SC: Over 1,200 in an hour's time?
JB: Yeah, I was counting — about every 10 minutes I would do 200 reps, maybe 210. So, that would total 1200, or a little bit more conservatively.
SC: During that training, if there is anything in your body that hurts, what would it be? What would you say would be the limiting factor for you personally? I know most people complain about grip, but I would suspect that is probably not a limiting factor in your case.
JB: Well, honestly that is probably the least of the problems, Steve. My problem is just, not problem, but the hardest thing is just kind of ah — sticking with the pace, you know and getting the breathing right and keeping yourself from slowing down.
SC: Spoken like a true athlete.
JB: Anything with the hands is, not so much fatigue, but occasionally you have to watch out because of the friction on your hands. If you're not careful, or your hands get too sweaty you can obviously tear a blister or a callous off.
SC: Right, that has happened to me a lot. How has KB training helped you in your all-around training and in life?
JB: I've probably been doing KBs now approximately about 2 1/2 years. And actually before I even knew who you or Pavel was I was actually doing some KB training in my yard. Not even knowing the background of them. I would say it's increased my overall functional back strength from, you know, from the beltline all the way up to my neck. It's probably doubled my functional back strength, because everything I do goes off the swing technique — whether I'm juggling or snatching. I kind of swing the kettlebell that way so everything is working the back, so to speak.
SC: Wow, that's true. The kettlebell back! Now, along the lines of that all-around functionality that you're talking about, often people will comment on the unique carry-over that KBs provide into other facets of training.
JB: Absolutely.
SC: Sometimes a phrase used to describe this carryover phenomenon is the "What the Heck" effect. They don't understand how or why it works. For example, doing heavy swings and drastically improving in the Dead lift, without necessarily practicing the DL.
JB: If you break down the motion, if you just look at it primitively or scientifically, you know, whether you're competing in martial arts, football, sprinting, I mean anything. If you look at the position you are in with the kettlebell, whether you're snatching, swinging, juggling. You're basically in that stance where you are thrusting upward against gravity. Does that make sense?
SC: That does makes sense, especially in the context of moving a resisting body.
JB: There are not many sports you'll play, you know, or combat or anything, where that motion is not going to be extremely effective.
SC: That's right — expanding against force.
JB: Exactly.
SC: John, would you say you've experienced any WTH moments in which the non-specific work you've done with KBs has carried over into improved function/strength in another facet of training? Have you done things with kettlebells that has helped carryover into other things that you didn't even practice?
JB: With myself Steve, I've done the world record several times pulling the tractor trailer — the truck pulling. I've just found that the gravity resistance and overall strength you get from the swings, or any technique with the kettlebells — it kinds of gives you that overall functional strength, or structural strength might be a good word. That will translate into any kind of heavy event.
SC: Structural strength is a good way of putting it.
JB: Because a lot of people are very strong in certain ways, but they don't have what I call structural strength, which is, basically coming out of the legs, hip and back, where their structure itself is not overly strong.
SC: Great point. John, can you tell us what some of your current goals are? Training goals or any world records that you have your eyes on or something like that?
JB: Well, I'm going to go back and keep trying to beat the times for the tractor trailer pulls. Basically what I'm looking to do, Steve, and I don't have a direct answer for you. I'm looking to create a sport or a hobby. Where we can take 5 or 6 of the hardest conditioning disciplines in the world, whether it's a combination of somewhat like the Girevoy Sport or Basque stone lifting. We take 5 or 6 of those very hard disciplines, and actually do them back-to-back, like say for an hour, hour and a half, and see how good we do with the numbers.
SC: So, you're talking about true, all-around strength-endurance training?
JB: Exactly. That works every part of your fiber, anaerobic, and of course there's a lot of discipline involved in that surely.
SC: That sounds really well-rounded. Do you think you would get much interest from strength athletes across the spectrum of different sports? Or do you think Powerlifters or Stongmen would be encouraged to participate in something like that, or do you think they would shy away from it?
JB: I think Steve, honestly they would definitely shy away from it. I think someone more like you would be more interested in that because there is a huge amount of cardiovascular and stamina involved in that. Not all, but the majority of the heavy events, because of guys with heavier bodyweights — they don't like to go that hard for very long.
SC: Yeah, that's a good point. It's a little easier for small guys like me (laughs).
JB: The whole key to any kind of conditioning is not necessarily the word strength; it's how to sustain strength under pressure, or under extreme conditions, so to speak. Even with grip training, many guys — they try to get stronger with their grip with kettlebells or whatever — which is good, but sustaining strength over a period of time is very different than just, you know, the type of strength that they try to develop. Does that make sense?
SC: Yes, I agree with you that sustained strength is probably the most valuable aspect of strength for most athletes and just life in general. Repeated effort.
John, would you please provide some training tips for our readers? I'm sure everyone would like to learn some ways to improve the grip endurance for kettlebell lifting. Are there any supplementary drills for strengthening the grip for better Snatch numbers? With most people, the grip is the first thing to give out during high-rep Snatch sets.
JB: I'll give you an exact exercise, Steve. But before that, I'd just like to encourage everybody to, when their grip gets tired, in the snatch for example. Most people, I feel, are training more for pure power when they need to be concentrating on sustained strength. Their grip is not going to go out after a few reps; it's going to be over a period of time.
One tip I can give for the snatch test — many people spend too much energy trying to grip too hard on the kettlebell. You want to keep a solid grip, but they grip too hard and they get too tight. Don't squeeze harder than you have to.
SC: So just minimize the amount of effort in squeezing the kettlebell and holding it?
JB: Exactly. Just like with what you do in the martial arts — if you're going too far forward, your leverage will be used against you. So, in other words, if they're gripping too tight on a particular weight — if they're gripping hard enough to lift a 200 lb weight but they're only lifting a 53lb weight, that's expending energy that they don't need to be expending.
SC: Great. I agree with you and that is something I am currently working on with my own practice. Learning to be more relaxed.
Please give us an example of your most grueling KB training workouts. Do you have any old-standbys that will always make a great "finisher"? What are your favorite "butt-kickers"?
JB: Well, some of the juggling stuff is very difficult, but we won't get into that because it is more of an art. I do an exercise called the Tiger Trot. The only reason I call it that is I taught the Georgetown Tigers Football team. You take the KB and as you swing it, you step forward and just keep walking with the KB. When the KB gets to the very top, there is an opportunity there that someone can move forward where it is kind of suspended in gravity — where it doesn't hurt your back or wrench your neck or anything. I like to do that walk with that, sometimes up to actually a half a mile from time to time.
SC: Wow (laughs). Yeah, that would be a finisher!
JB: That'll be a lot harder than the swing, because it will work your legs a lot more, but also your cardiovascular is worked much harder than in the swing.
SC: That's for sure. I've done some variation of what we call the Walking Swings. But never for a 1/2 mile!
JB: And you don't necessarily have to swing it real high. Chest level or above — basically just try to walk as far as you can and as soon as you start to get overly winded or your traps or back breaks down — set it down and as quickly as you can come back, because we're trying to sustain strength.
SC: That makes sense, especially for football players, where they have to be strong in the 4th quarter. That is a tremendous way of developing endurance.
JB: Once again Steve, that position — you're driving off your legs and you're in a half-squat position like you'd be in almost any kind of sport or martial art.
SC: Last question John, what I would consider the most important thing, and I think it's something that very rarely, if ever, do people come across this type of information in training journals or training articles. That is, people who know who you are and some of the things you've accomplished — the obvious thing are just the physical strength and your ability. But, I think the less obvious, and in my mind probably the most important thing is, what is the source of that strength? Some people talk about faith or perhaps in religion. Would you say that there is something that goes beyond the physical that really powers you, or enables you to reach deeper inside to accomplish some of these — what some might consider super-human types of accomplishments that you do.
JB: As a matter of fact it is a very simple question for me but a very difficult question for most people. Probably the simplest question you've asked me the whole interview for me. Basically, about 20-some years ago I made Jesus lord and savior, so my faith lies in Jesus. But, it's knowing your position or your place is in life. I know I am called to do the physical fitness and be able to go out and evangelize, doing the feats of strength and balance. Basically, it's kind of like my job or my assignment, and once you find your place like that, it's going to flow, and go a lot better.
SC: You are definitely someone who is there for service, and that shows in everything you do, and it's very refreshing.
JB: Basically, God gives us all different talents, but unfortunately most people don't know what their talent is. That's why it's a simple question, Steve. I know that's my talent, so I just try to always improve myself. I'm 46 now, but because of the Lord I can do things I couldn't do, you know, 5 or 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. It's just because, it's the position He's given me.
SC: Well, that is very powerful and I really appreciate you sharing that openly with myself and the readers. I think it is important for people to understand that there is a faith component to great accomplishments.
JB: With different goals, people just need to try to improve a little bit each and every day, with their strength and fitness. Not necessarily look toward the world record, but I've found that if you can beat your self and accomplish your own goals, it's very easy to beat anybody else, if that makes sense.
SC: Yes, that makes sense. I have found that to be true — we are our own greatest challenge. Thanks so much for sitting down and speaking with us, it's always an education and a pleasure.
JB: Thank you very much Steve and I appreciate your time.
You can learn more about John Brookfield and his outstanding kettlebell and other training products at www.GridironWarrior.com
John and author Ori Hofmekler are presenting Controlled Fatigue Training at seminars throughout the country. You can find seminar information at the Warrior Diet web site: www.warriordiet.com
